Episode 150 - Adapting to Edition Change

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Re: Episode 150 - Adapting to Edition Change

Post by cvtuttle » Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:14 am

Grots Life wrote:To me, the episode sounded like the first podcast of Lords and Heroes. Lots of talk about how the current AoS is more streamlined than 40K and how much better 40K will be when it's more like AoS. The episode did accomplish two things for me, 1.) I want to play AoS and 2.) I'm really looking forward to 8th ed. now.


I hesitate to say it needs to be "More like Age of Sigmar" but I do think that there are some important lessons to be learned from AoS. And SOME of those could be ported over directly. Some not.

I don't want to see them merge into the same game system (I do not believe this will happen even remotely), but I do want to not turn a blind eye to some things just because they are in AoS... if that makes sense.

Either way I am SERIOUSLY STOKED for 8th edition. It's going to be neat.

(Edit) Btw - Lords and Heroes is never going to happen from me :P
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Re: Episode 150 - Adapting to Edition Change

Post by cvtuttle » Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:16 am

Malachi wrote:Very interesting discussion. I was surprised about the negative feeling toward True Line of Sight. Maybe I just play with a good play group, but we've never had arguments about it. I find it works best to be up front with your opponent. If you are trying to completely block LOS then announce that when you are moving the model: "I'm trying to block LOS from your Riptide to this Rhino, let me know when I get there." This works better than you thinking that you've done it, only to have your opponent say, "No I can still see him."

I really got perspective on TLOS when I recently started picking up Warmachine. In many ways the rules of Warmachine are like an echo of previous editions of 40k and Fantasy: half blast damage if you "miss," half movement through terrain, can't see more than 3" in/out of a forest, fixed charge range, and abstract LOS. The problem I see on Warmachine tables with their abstracted LOS system, is that there is no need to create interesting and dynamic looking scenery, so people don't do it. The table has a green piece of cloth - that's a forest, a brown piece of cloth - that's a hill, and a blue piece of cloth - that's water. Why actually model those things when the rules don't require it and having "3D terrain" (it's actually a "term" among WM players) just gets in the way of moving models?

I like that the TLOS system forces players to make interesting looking boards and terrain to get the rules interactions.


How you describe TLoS is actually how I play. I don't worry about it too much. I HAVE however, personally witnessed arguments break out over it which are silly. I watched Reece at Adepticon during 5th edition, challenge almost EVERY TLoS shot his opponent took, and it was a PAINFUL game to watch as a result.

To be perfectly honest it doesn't make or break it for me - but I also agree it forced us (as a community) to build better terrain! :)
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Re: Episode 150 - Adapting to Edition Change

Post by Anubis1028 » Thu Mar 30, 2017 5:03 pm

I agree that 40k has become so bloated that it's getting crazy. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy 7th more than any other edition since 2nd...but I am incredibly stoked to see what 8th is going to bring to the table as far as slimming things down a bit. I was completely engaged when AoS dropped and fell in love with it, there are definitely some fantastic mechanics that would benefit 40k greatly. Very glad to see different Movement characteristics returning to the game and *really* hoping that the decreasing stats as wounds are taken mechanic comes over to monstrous creatures and vehicles. There is definitely a bit of "What's going to happen to my game?!?" nervousness, but the track record GW has set for the last couple of years has me very optimistic for what's to come. And my wife nervous for our bank account.

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Re: Episode 150 - Adapting to Edition Change

Post by cvtuttle » Thu Mar 30, 2017 8:21 pm

Anubis1028 wrote:I agree that 40k has become so bloated that it's getting crazy. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy 7th more than any other edition since 2nd...but I am incredibly stoked to see what 8th is going to bring to the table as far as slimming things down a bit. I was completely engaged when AoS dropped and fell in love with it, there are definitely some fantastic mechanics that would benefit 40k greatly. Very glad to see different Movement characteristics returning to the game and *really* hoping that the decreasing stats as wounds are taken mechanic comes over to monstrous creatures and vehicles. There is definitely a bit of "What's going to happen to my game?!?" nervousness, but the track record GW has set for the last couple of years has me very optimistic for what's to come. And my wife nervous for our bank account.


Pretty much exactly how I feel - though I am less nervous than ever about the changes.
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Re: Episode 150 - Adapting to Edition Change

Post by Anubis1028 » Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:35 pm

cvtuttle wrote:
Anubis1028 wrote:I agree that 40k has become so bloated that it's getting crazy. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy 7th more than any other edition since 2nd...but I am incredibly stoked to see what 8th is going to bring to the table as far as slimming things down a bit. I was completely engaged when AoS dropped and fell in love with it, there are definitely some fantastic mechanics that would benefit 40k greatly. Very glad to see different Movement characteristics returning to the game and *really* hoping that the decreasing stats as wounds are taken mechanic comes over to monstrous creatures and vehicles. There is definitely a bit of "What's going to happen to my game?!?" nervousness, but the track record GW has set for the last couple of years has me very optimistic for what's to come. And my wife nervous for our bank account.


Pretty much exactly how I feel - though I am less nervous than ever about the changes.


GW has definitely been knocking it out of the park lately, so it's less "nervousness" and more "anticipated nostalgia" :lol:

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Re: Episode 150 - Adapting to Edition Change

Post by Malahat Mike » Sun Apr 02, 2017 5:38 pm

I just listened to this episode today I have a bit of confession to make. Somewhere on these forums I've posted that I was totally against the changes to the style and background of Age of Sigmar to Warhammer Fantasy back when it was released. I'd played WFB through 4th, 5th and 6th Edition and had fallen off but knew that one day I would return to it. So to me it was a bit of a shot in a gut, even though I wasn't actively playing. I snapped up some boxes of stuff thinking I'll either try and keep going with 8th Edition or go towards 9th Age. Fast forward a year later and I've really come around to Age of Sigmar. I played some brief games at the local GW store, but really it was watching a twitch stream that the Warhammer TV crew did. It involved this "Free People" army that combined Free Guilds, High Aelfs and the Fireslayers which were all really well painted and done up to be a matching theme. It really triggered something in me that liked it and suddenly I wasn't so bothered by the idea that Dark Elves no longer were their own army. Since then I've watched them release numerous things that makes me realize they've really brought Age of Sigmar in to its own. I've lost any apprehension I had towards WH40K taking on AoS elements in 8th edition. I'm now excited for it.

Its interesting how you tied in your work, in having to be the author, or manage similar type of change in your workplace. For the last five years my own place of employment, a very large public sector company, has been dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century. I've watched many people unable to cope with this change. The fortunate ones were senior enough to retire, the less so balk at it and generally make themselves increasingly miserable. I have admit to often joining the chorus of naysayers, however my education and "youth" have allowed me to adept. Going forward I think I will try and be more supportive to managers attempting to roll out these changes to their departments. Even though none of them play Warhammer 40K.

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Re: Episode 150 - Adapting to Edition Change

Post by Fomite » Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:27 pm

cvtuttle wrote:While I am sorry the episode didn't work for you, I am going to disagree that this was a "Lets complain about the rules". The rules, they are changing. Without a doubt this is going to occur. What we wanted to do was talk about not only the rules that initially were met with a lot of negativity, but also whether or not that criticism was actually legitimately placed.


In the spirit of looking back at things, I will say I think some of my initial reaction was fueled by how I ended up listening to it - the largest single chunk of time I had to listen fell squarely in I think the most negative part of the episode, while the more positive discussion bits were chopped up in little 10 minute car rides here and there.

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Re: Episode 150 - Adapting to Edition Change

Post by Fomite » Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:57 pm

Also you can totally tell Carl is in IT as he starts getting worried about electronic codexes as a version control problem.

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Re: Episode 150 - Adapting to Edition Change

Post by cvtuttle » Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:01 am

Fomite wrote:Also you can totally tell Carl is in IT as he starts getting worried about electronic codexes as a version control problem.


Actually I am in Operations. But for a tech company.
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Re: Episode 150 - Adapting to Edition Change

Post by Adan » Sat Apr 08, 2017 4:45 pm

LOVE the feedback. We weren't complaining so much as discussing what could work better and comparing to AoS ways of addressing some of those issues.

Fomite wrote:1- Overwatch: I really like overwatch. I think it does add a couple things to the game, including that "I'm rolling dice in my opponents turn" aspect you praised about some other mechanics in AoS. And I also think, to steal something Justin was saying, that it adds decisions and tactical depth to the game because there's decisions on the assaulting player. Assault shouldn't just be "Of course I charge." There should be depth to it - whether or not you should go in with a bait unit first. Whether you should charge that unit of flamer armed types or not. Without it, there's very few reasons not to charge.

2- Running: The reason its not in the movement phase is because there's a phase in between moving and shooting. I can pretty much promise you that if it was the way Justin wanted, he'd be complaining about shenanigans with running and then casting Blessings. ;)

3- Formations: You guys had been talking about "Power from Fluff" earlier - the Gladius is exactly that. Take some units you wouldn't normally take, in the "classic" way a Space Marine army deploys, and get bonuses from it. You might not like the "Free Stuff!" version of power, but it's not like you saw a lot of Space Marine companies on the table before Gladius showed up.

4- Moving Rules to Unit Entries: I think this is a big step backwards. It's way easier to say "These are Aeldari Soul-Eaters, they have Fleet, Rage and Counter-attack" than "They have Wrath of the Ancient Gods, which does...". That GW introduced so many "It's like X but..." rules is a problem, but moving it to the unit entries doesn't streamline anything.


1- I'm pretty much OK with Overwatch, although I know others don't like it. I'm not fan of tinkering with the BS, although for armies with ZERO assault abilities (i.e. Tau), I get it. If there were a way to require that you had to "set" Overwatch, I would like it quite a bit (a la Space Hulk/Bolt Action).

2- IIRC, in Fantasy, if you Run, you can't cast. I know it's that way in War Machine as well. I would prefer it in the movement phase, only because it's easier to remember that you want to run. I appreciate the tactical advantage of seeing the effects of one unit's shooting before you decide to run with another one, but there should be more of a "cost" for electing to run and by forcing that decision in the movement phase, you have to worry a bit more about your shooting to come.

3- Warboss Dugg took a White Scars Gladius formation into the top 16 at Adepticon, and only lost because he misjudged a death-star unit across from him. I think the bonus is a bit high, but I agree that it's a fluffy build and I like that it is rewarded with advantages. Doug proved that a fluffy army can go far.

4- I just want "Rage" to be "Rage" and not be constantly changing. That was more of a lament from an old-person's brain. Look at a War Machine unit card -- it has the special power listed and defined on the card, but you can also look at the BRB to see the whole list of special rules (and they are all consistent). So "moving it to the unit entry" for me mean just the same -- have the definition locally as well as globally.

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