Episode 150 - Adapting to Edition Change

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Episode 150 - Adapting to Edition Change

Post by cvtuttle » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:30 pm

Episode 150 of The Independent Characters is all about dealing with change in the hobby.

With 8th edition Warhammer 40,000 right around the corner we are sure to see some people get upset about many of the changes. We talk about some good ideas for how to deal with the upcoming upheaval. We start by taking a look back through changes we saw from 5th to 6th and 7th edition and try to put some perspective around how some changes, that were thought to be catastrophic to the game at the time, really panned out.

Building upon this perspective, we talk a bit about good strategies for dealing with change from the point of view of those who deal with this kind of thing on a regular basis. Then we launch into a discussion about what changes we might see ported over from Age of Sigmar into Warhammer 40,000 with this new edition.

We hope you enjoy.


http://theindependentcharacters.com/blog/?p=3914
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Re: Episode 150 - Adapting to Edition Change

Post by IVC Mike » Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:29 pm

Justin mentioned his preference for an analog version of a kanban board. I actually use a cork board that's up in my hobby space and would definitely recommend it. There's something nice about moving an index card up the board and you can color code for projects. Plus there's a physical reminder to get to work when you're wasting time watching whatever.

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Re: Episode 150 - Adapting to Edition Change

Post by Malachi » Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:28 am

Very interesting discussion. I was surprised about the negative feeling toward True Line of Sight. Maybe I just play with a good play group, but we've never had arguments about it. I find it works best to be up front with your opponent. If you are trying to completely block LOS then announce that when you are moving the model: "I'm trying to block LOS from your Riptide to this Rhino, let me know when I get there." This works better than you thinking that you've done it, only to have your opponent say, "No I can still see him."

I really got perspective on TLOS when I recently started picking up Warmachine. In many ways the rules of Warmachine are like an echo of previous editions of 40k and Fantasy: half blast damage if you "miss," half movement through terrain, can't see more than 3" in/out of a forest, fixed charge range, and abstract LOS. The problem I see on Warmachine tables with their abstracted LOS system, is that there is no need to create interesting and dynamic looking scenery, so people don't do it. The table has a green piece of cloth - that's a forest, a brown piece of cloth - that's a hill, and a blue piece of cloth - that's water. Why actually model those things when the rules don't require it and having "3D terrain" (it's actually a "term" among WM players) just gets in the way of moving models?

I like that the TLOS system forces players to make interesting looking boards and terrain to get the rules interactions.

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Re: Episode 150 - Adapting to Edition Change

Post by Grots Life » Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:31 am

You discussed a lot about how AoS will most likely influence 8th edition. What about 30K? Does that play any different than current 40K in any way and do you see that making it's way into any new rules?

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Re: Episode 150 - Adapting to Edition Change

Post by Fomite » Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:48 pm

Grots Life wrote:You discussed a lot about how AoS will most likely influence 8th edition. What about 30K? Does that play any different than current 40K in any way and do you see that making it's way into any new rules?


30K is basically 6.5th Edition 40K. They're using 7th Edition rules, but discarding/strongly discouraging a number of elements, especially around army composition. I really can't see GW going that way with 8th.

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Re: Episode 150 - Adapting to Edition Change

Post by Fomite » Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:55 pm

On Allies:

In 7th, it's all "Something + Riptides".

In 5th, it was all Grey Knights or Space Wolves.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say it might not be allies that are the problem.

Competitive players will tend to what's perceived as the optimum army combination, regardless of whether or not you have allies there. You can see that when Adan started ranting about the Skyshield Landing Pad...that's not allies. What's the story behind all Thunderwolves and a chapter's worth of Iron Priests?

Getting rid of allies is throwing the baby out with the bath water. You can do cool things with allies. You can do horrible, unfun, gamey things with allies. You can do cool stuff with a mono-codex army. You can do horrible, unfun, gamey things with a mono-codex army.

And while I'm cautiously optimistic about this "You get the power through the fluff" thing, that is very much driven by GW's vision of what a fluffy army is. I've deviated enough from the standard GW vision enough on armies that genuinely have actually stories behind them that I'm a little hesitant.

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Re: Episode 150 - Adapting to Edition Change

Post by Fomite » Sat Mar 25, 2017 2:22 pm

3rd Post in a Row... :?

I feel a little bad picking on you guys while you're at AdeptaCon, but for me, this episode fell a little flat. It felt less like "Adapting to Edition Change" and more "Lets Complain About the Rules", and there are plenty of places I can go to hear that Tau are broken and the worst thing ever. I also happen to disagree on some stuff, but tonally...

Fours things (besides the allies...) that I disagree with specifically:

- Overwatch: I really like overwatch. I think it does add a couple things to the game, including that "I'm rolling dice in my opponents turn" aspect you praised about some other mechanics in AoS. And I also think, to steal something Justin was saying, that it adds decisions and tactical depth to the game because there's decisions on the assaulting player. Assault shouldn't just be "Of course I charge." There should be depth to it - whether or not you should go in with a bait unit first. Whether you should charge that unit of flamer armed types or not. Without it, there's very few reasons not to charge.

- Running: The reason its not in the movement phase is because there's a phase in between moving and shooting. I can pretty much promise you that if it was the way Justin wanted, he'd be complaining about shenanigans with running and then casting Blessings. ;)

- Formations: You guys had been talking about "Power from Fluff" earlier - the Gladius is exactly that. Take some units you wouldn't normally take, in the "classic" way a Space Marine army deploys, and get bonuses from it. You might not like the "Free Stuff!" version of power, but it's not like you saw a lot of Space Marine companies on the table before Gladius showed up.

- Moving Rules to Unit Entries: I think this is a big step backwards. It's way easier to say "These are Aeldari Soul-Eaters, they have Fleet, Rage and Counter-attack" than "They have Wrath of the Ancient Gods, which does...". That GW introduced so many "It's like X but..." rules is a problem, but moving it to the unit entries doesn't streamline anything.

Anyway, griping over. And in the name of not disagreeing with Justin on everything...I too prefer an analog kanban board. Corkboard and index cards my friend.

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Re: Episode 150 - Adapting to Edition Change

Post by Grots Life » Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:10 pm

To me, the episode sounded like the first podcast of Lords and Heroes. Lots of talk about how the current AoS is more streamlined than 40K and how much better 40K will be when it's more like AoS. The episode did accomplish two things for me, 1.) I want to play AoS and 2.) I'm really looking forward to 8th ed. now.

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Re: Episode 150 - Adapting to Edition Change

Post by Fomite » Sun Mar 26, 2017 11:49 pm

Grots Life wrote:To me, the episode sounded like the first podcast of Lords and Heroes. Lots of talk about how the current AoS is more streamlined than 40K and how much better 40K will be when it's more like AoS. The episode did accomplish two things for me, 1.) I want to play AoS and 2.) I'm really looking forward to 8th ed. now.


I will say that - this episode convinced me I should be more than dabbling with AoS.

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Re: Episode 150 - Adapting to Edition Change

Post by cvtuttle » Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:11 am

Fomite wrote:3rd Post in a Row... :?

I feel a little bad picking on you guys while you're at AdeptaCon, but for me, this episode fell a little flat. It felt less like "Adapting to Edition Change" and more "Lets Complain About the Rules", and there are plenty of places I can go to hear that Tau are broken and the worst thing ever. I also happen to disagree on some stuff, but tonally...


While I am sorry the episode didn't work for you, I am going to disagree that this was a "Lets complain about the rules". The rules, they are changing. Without a doubt this is going to occur. What we wanted to do was talk about not only the rules that initially were met with a lot of negativity, but also whether or not that criticism was actually legitimately placed.

You cannot discuss something that DIDN'T work without dabbling in WHY it didn't work (whether personally or for the whole).

I actually thought, after we finished the episode, that it was a pretty solid discussion. Again, sorry it didn't work for you. But there is LEGITIMATELY some issues with Warhammer 40k. We know this and I don't think we lingered too long on it. If there were absolutely NO problems there would be no need for a new edition. Even GW recognizes (especially I would assume after playing in the Team Tournament at Adepticon) that the system is "collapsing under its own weight". (Their words - not ours!)

Yes we did discuss Tau at some length, because they are primarily the army with some of the most egregious offenses right now (Though after seeing some abuse of Tzeentch stuff at Adepticon... I may have changed my thoughts on that!) Eldar, as you know, are also up there in the power scheme.

Overall I felt the episode was pretty positive. I was trying to demonstrate that fear of some of these changes didn't really pan out. For the most part I think we succeeded. As 7th Edition winds down, an Edition of the game I might add that I played more than ANY other edition, I think looking back and seeing what worked and what didn't is a good exercise.

You do raise an excellent point about the Gladius Formation and I definitely agree with you there. I personally don't have a problem with bonus models or other rules bonuses based on taking an force that backs up the flavor of the army.

As I said in the show though, I am looking more forward to this change of editions than ANY other in the past. It's not because I hate 7th edition (I don't! I have enjoyed it immensely.), but its because I see how the game can be improved upon. Especially after seeing what good has come out of AoS, another game people reacted to VERY negatively at first, but are now coming around to understanding the larger picture.
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