Episode 75 - Identifying Your 40k Playstyle

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Re: Episode 75 - Identifying Your 40k Playstyle

Post by Bubo » Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:32 pm

Great news on the Zone Mortalis board! The guys at Warhammer World were telling me about a game they ran on theirs where each turn random tiles would rotate or shift around (with models on them and all!) to represent a chaos ship mutating as the battle raged within
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Re: Episode 75 - Identifying Your 40k Playstyle

Post by cvtuttle » Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:05 pm

Bubo wrote:Great news on the Zone Mortalis board! The guys at Warhammer World were telling me about a game they ran on theirs where each turn random tiles would rotate or shift around (with models on them and all!) to represent a chaos ship mutating as the battle raged within
Oh man... I LOVE that idea! Thanks!
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Re: Episode 75 - Identifying Your 40k Playstyle

Post by Inquisitor Valeria » Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:30 pm

I felt the coverage of the Bay Area Open was a little heavy on the... I don't know exactly how to phrase it but... "You had to be there" talk. Missing details on why you guys felt like things weren't done right. Like... when I saw the pictures on facebook, I thought to myself "WOW there are a lot of people crammed in that little space. I'll bet everyone felt cramped and sweaty all day long." You mentioned that once you were in you couldn't go anywhere else, but didn't actually say why. If I hadn't seen the pictures I wouldn't have known what you meant by that. Doors that locked you out if you went to the bathroom? Security guards at the location that didn't recognize gaming badges? Nowhere to park unless you got there super early? Through that section there was just this kind of vague sense that things had not met expectations but not so much... why they had not met expectations. =)


I very much look forward to any further discussion you guys have on the female gamer topic. Why more ladies aren't into tabletop wargaming I think is too much of a society at large question to put a point on, but I think just generally tabletop wargaming and the associated hobby is already a "40 Year Old Virgin" stereotype for guys, let alone the just straight up confused looks most people give a girl that says she likes to semi-seriously play war with crazy expensive little plastic figures.

But as for gamer treatment, as a female gamer myself I know you have to have some self-confidence to break into a group of (generally) natural introverts who eyeball you like either a weirdly dressed foreigner or a rare trophy to be acquired. The first night I showed up at what has turned into my FLGS on 40K night with an army bag over my shoulder, one guy asked me "Who are you holding that for?" after staring at me for an uncomfortably long silence. And then proceeded to (only somewhat playfully) berate me for playing Grey Knights. I had a game scheduled with someone I only knew from the forums and luckily he saw me standing at the door and pulled me back to our table because everyone else just kinda stopped their conversations and looked at me when I came within a few yards. lol.

Two months later I took second place in a store tournament with first place in painting score and then everyone knew who I was. Another store here in the area... even the guys that worked there literally did not say hi to me for MONTHS. I would walk in, look for what I was there to pick up, come up to the register, ding the bell, one of them would look over from the TV, get up, and come ring me up with barely a smile. One night I happened to go in there when someone I already knew from MY store (who is kinda big in the local scene) was there painting and we chatted it up for about 30 minutes. THEN the guy that works there said hi to me. Like "Whoa... hey... you know so and so? You play?" Nope... I've only come in here a dozen times and bought something without having to ask what it was. I have NO idea what I'm doing here. lol.

So I think part of what keeps female gamers away is the sense of having to prove yourself before people give you the time of day. At the very least as a "real" geek girl who cares, not one of the dreaded and infamous "fake" geek girls who just do it for attention. lol. If I hadn't been confident already that I love this hobby and confident that I could learn to play well (enough), it would have been pretty daunting.
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Re: Episode 75 - Identifying Your 40k Playstyle

Post by narceron » Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:40 pm

Another solid episode, guys! Cash Hammer defends his title!

On a side note, next time you are on the IVC, tell Dawson a sanguinary priest can't join mephiston, that'll make his day.
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Re: Episode 75 - Identifying Your 40k Playstyle

Post by cvtuttle » Thu Mar 28, 2013 7:47 pm

Inquisitor Valeria wrote:I felt the coverage of the Bay Area Open was a little heavy on the... I don't know exactly how to phrase it but... "You had to be there" talk. Missing details on why you guys felt like things weren't done right. Like... when I saw the pictures on facebook, I thought to myself "WOW there are a lot of people crammed in that little space. I'll bet everyone felt cramped and sweaty all day long." You mentioned that once you were in you couldn't go anywhere else, but didn't actually say why. If I hadn't seen the pictures I wouldn't have known what you meant by that. Doors that locked you out if you went to the bathroom? Security guards at the location that didn't recognize gaming badges? Nowhere to park unless you got there super early? Through that section there was just this kind of vague sense that things had not met expectations but not so much... why they had not met expectations. =)
A fair criticism. When listening to the show while editing I noticed this as well. I was hoping I was just being to critical. We will be careful in the future with this.
Inquisitor Valeria wrote:I very much look forward to any further discussion you guys have on the female gamer topic. Why more ladies aren't into tabletop wargaming I think is too much of a society at large question to put a point on, but I think just generally tabletop wargaming and the associated hobby is already a "40 Year Old Virgin" stereotype for guys, let alone the just straight up confused looks most people give a girl that says she likes to semi-seriously play war with crazy expensive little plastic figures.

But as for gamer treatment, as a female gamer myself I know you have to have some self-confidence to break into a group of (generally) natural introverts who eyeball you like either a weirdly dressed foreigner or a rare trophy to be acquired. The first night I showed up at what has turned into my FLGS on 40K night with an army bag over my shoulder, one guy asked me "Who are you holding that for?" after staring at me for an uncomfortably long silence. And then proceeded to (only somewhat playfully) berate me for playing Grey Knights. I had a game scheduled with someone I only knew from the forums and luckily he saw me standing at the door and pulled me back to our table because everyone else just kinda stopped their conversations and looked at me when I came within a few yards. lol.

Two months later I took second place in a store tournament with first place in painting score and then everyone knew who I was. Another store here in the area... even the guys that worked there literally did not say hi to me for MONTHS. I would walk in, look for what I was there to pick up, come up to the register, ding the bell, one of them would look over from the TV, get up, and come ring me up with barely a smile. One night I happened to go in there when someone I already knew from MY store (who is kinda big in the local scene) was there painting and we chatted it up for about 30 minutes. THEN the guy that works there said hi to me. Like "Whoa... hey... you know so and so? You play?" Nope... I've only come in here a dozen times and bought something without having to ask what it was. I have NO idea what I'm doing here. lol.

So I think part of what keeps female gamers away is the sense of having to prove yourself before people give you the time of day. At the very least as a "real" geek girl who cares, not one of the dreaded and infamous "fake" geek girls who just do it for attention. lol. If I hadn't been confident already that I love this hobby and confident that I could learn to play well (enough), it would have been pretty daunting.
Sorry you had so much... Discomfort. Your story is really interesting...
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Re: Episode 75 - Identifying Your 40k Playstyle

Post by Adan » Thu Mar 28, 2013 8:17 pm

Bubo wrote:Great news on the Zone Mortalis board! The guys at Warhammer World were telling me about a game they ran on theirs where each turn random tiles would rotate or shift around (with models on them and all!) to represent a chaos ship mutating as the battle raged within
Funny, Geoff and I were talking about exactly that with Aaron when we were playing the other day on the board.
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Re: Episode 75 - Identifying Your 40k Playstyle

Post by Inquisitor Valeria » Fri Mar 29, 2013 8:24 am

cvtuttle wrote:Sorry you had so much... Discomfort. Your story is really interesting...
Eh. 8-) Nothing I couldn't handle. I also play video games and the level of abuse you get from complete strangers online for being female..... let's just say people looking at you funny doesn't even hold a candle in comparison. hehe.

I also had some very very good experiences with good peoples I would be remiss in not mentioning in regards to 'breaking into' the local scene - the good far outweighed the discomfort, which is why I'm so attached to a specific store now - but I don't think they did that because I'm a girl... they are just welcoming, happy, and generous with everyone.
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Re: Episode 75 - Identifying Your 40k Playstyle

Post by Loopy » Fri Mar 29, 2013 8:49 am

If I were to pull up to a table with a woman on the other side, I'm not sure how I'd react. I know for a fact that my aim would be to treat her no differently than a man, but to be honest, I think it would show that I'm trying to treat her no differently than a man. I'm not sure if lady gamers feel weird about that or appreciate that. It might help that I'm married and have zero interest in impressing anyone, especially other women.

That is not to say that I don't re-apply the ol' deoderant between games. That's a given.

I think it would be the same if I encountered a non-caucasian on the other side of the table.

It's less that I don't deal with women or non-caucasians on a daily basis, and not that I'm uncomfortable around women or non-caucasians. Quite the opposite. But I think I'd be nervous about making the experience good for them so that they stay in the hobby. I KNOW we need more diversity in the hobby. I know the value of diversity in any community and how it can help develop new ideas and viewpoints. So, I know I'd act differently, but because I don't want to screw it up and make my opponent think negatively about the hobby.

On an intellectual level, I know for a fact that I should be thinking that about every opponent, not just if they identify as an under-represented group in our hobby. But, I think social dynamics and personal motivations are far more complex than people would have them be.
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Re: Episode 75 - Identifying Your 40k Playstyle

Post by cvtuttle » Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:46 am

Loopy wrote:If I were to pull up to a table with a woman on the other side, I'm not sure how I'd react. I know for a fact that my aim would be to treat her no differently than a man, but to be honest, I think it would show that I'm trying to treat her no differently than a man. I'm not sure if lady gamers feel weird about that or appreciate that. It might help that I'm married and have zero interest in impressing anyone, especially other women.

That is not to say that I don't re-apply the ol' deoderant between games. That's a given.

I think it would be the same if I encountered a non-caucasian on the other side of the table.

It's less that I don't deal with women or non-caucasians on a daily basis, and not that I'm uncomfortable around women or non-caucasians. Quite the opposite. But I think I'd be nervous about making the experience good for them so that they stay in the hobby. I KNOW we need more diversity in the hobby. I know the value of diversity in any community and how it can help develop new ideas and viewpoints. So, I know I'd act differently, but because I don't want to screw it up and make my opponent think negatively about the hobby.

On an intellectual level, I know for a fact that I should be thinking that about every opponent, not just if they identify as an under-represented group in our hobby. But, I think social dynamics and personal motivations are far more complex than people would have them be.
You know this is a really interesting point and I appreciate the level of honesty you presented here. I can't say I wouldn't do exactly the same thing. It's like an over-compensation to make sure the person feels comfortable, but like the video game Asteroids you end up looping around the other side of the screen...
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Re: Episode 75 - Identifying Your 40k Playstyle

Post by narceron » Fri Mar 29, 2013 11:02 am

Well, Geoff seemed very intelligent and succinct on the female gamer winning the BAO, if you make a big deal of it, it fulfills the idea of the stereotype, but if don't, how can things change.

Our store, we already have a female gamer, she plays dark eldar and she tabled Jay...twice... in row. She no longer gets special treatment.

Likewise, at our last tournament, it was not a sea of white(well and mocha, represent!), but we actually had several black guys, or African Americans in more PC circles. Of course, me high fiving a guy for being black and having an army primed black with comment of "I totally get it!" didn't help race relations, but just the kind of guy I am, :)

I find more issue with age than race or gender, since I work in a field dominated by women, I know they are just as broken as I am, but again, in my field, race is pretty much awesome. But age, I have real trouble with someone a lot younger or a lot older than me(like playing against carl, I thought I had to say yes sir and no sir) or with my buddy Phillip tabling a teenager a few weeks ago, he actually felt bad because it was "just a kid." Of course, I told him C3PO would have handed him his ass at age 16, but you know, whatever, :)
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